#72 - Accelerating Recovery and Performance: Insights into Elite Athlete Care, Part 3

Hi guys, Welcome to another episode of The Factor podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Riddle. If this is your first time tuning in, welcome and thank you for listening. Today we complete our three part in depth interview with doctor Todd Riddle and Roger Fleming, where we've discussed what it takes to treat athletes at the highest level of performance. Our conversation has covered a variety of topics, from professional development and growth, to the importance of inter professional collaboration on a sportsmed team and making sideline care available for athletes at all levels. Today, in this final segment, as we wrap up our conversation, I get to ask some of the more juicy questions to give you, my dear listener, a peek behind the curtain into what it's like to go on the road with the national athletic teams such as USA Gymnastics and USA Racketball, which both providers have experience with. We talk about everything from the treatment devices and tools they never leave home without, to dispelling common misconceptions about what it is they do as a member of an elite sports med team. Then we end the discussion with their best words of advice for students or young practitioners just starting out. Personally, I've had a ton of fun with this interview style format, and I hope that you all have as well. We will definitely be sure to sprinkle in some of these interesting and thought provoking episodes in the future. Without further ado, let's cue the intro music and dive in to today's episode. The main theme that I've heard from both of you throughout this discussion has been about trust, and it's about really trusting the people that are to either side of you treating those athletes, whether it's on the field of play or at a competition or in between. I know that, and again with some of these national teams, there is a proving ground and there is a time where you have to volunteer your services. You have to earn it, so to speak. But then when you do develop that trust relationship with the other healthcare providers, you then have that credibility to make those recommendations for others to come into the organization when that opportunity presents itself or it's warranted. Talk to me a little bit about the type of healthcare providers that are on sports medicine teams at this level. How many different professions are represented, and if you could give kind of a brief overview of the different lanes so to speak, that each of you operate within at an event, but then also in between these these major competitions. I made a post about this on social media about a month ago as I was returning back from World Championships, about how blessed I felt to work alongside Doctor of Osteopathy, two athletic trainers. One was a dual credentialed ATPT. We had a sports psychologist there and then obviously myself there representing sports chiropractic. And though each one of us had our lanes, we were all driving in the same direction on the same freeway. So while our lanes were separate and distinct, sometimes we crossed over and switched lanes as appropriate in order to help each other out. So sometimes I was the one that had to provide physical therapy even though a physical therapist was there. The doctor of Osteopathy does very well assessment and joint manipulation, so when I was covered up or she was the better one to do it, then she was the one to do it. So even though we have our distinct lanes, when you work as a cohesive team and you understand the strengths of the people that you're there with, it's much easier to make decisions about who an athlete should see at that particular instance. And it's very fluid and it's very different with each in every event, at least the ones that I've been working alongside with Roger, so I can't say that it's the exact same and every single one. When Roger and I worked Team Camp in France, there were two athletic trainers in a sports chiropractor along with another sports psychologist, so we didn't have a medical doctor there per se to kind of oversee all of the decisions. It was left to the professionals that were there to make the decisions on athlete health. So it's a little bit different every single time, and again that's based on resources really more than anything else. It's not that the priority for the athlete's health isn't the highest, but sometimes resources and experience kind of helped to dictate how a particular event gets staffed. And I think that goes back to what we were trying to say earlier. Many schools that don't have sideline care or feel to play care, it really just comes down to resources. The priority wasn't there to keep the resources in the right place, or if they had to choose between putting the athletes in proper sporting equipment or having someone on the field of play, obviously they're going to choose the sporting equipment because then the sport doesn't happen. So it's a little bit different with each and every one, and I think that's why it's important to understand the sport you're going into, so that you have one and understanding of the athletes and the sport, but two the providers that you're going to be working with well. And I recall early days when you began working with USA Gymnastics, there were purposeful conversations that you had with the other members of the sports medicine team where you approached the conversation from a standpoint of I'm here to serve, let's let me know where my contribution needs to be and obviously scopes of practice amongst professions. But I think it was very important looking back that you were intentional about letting people know on that team that you're all on the same page, you're all there to serve, and that you're willing and open to taking direction or to having open communication about specifically what your role is there as part of that team for sure, and sports chiropractors are working very hard to gain the cultural authority within sports medicine to be a part of the team. So for me, it was very important that the folks that I was going to work with understood that I know I'm a part of the team and that I'm not going to be there to take over or circumvent. That I know where I am in the pecking order, and I just want them to make it clear to me what their expectations are of me. It's like any job interview. You want to know what the job is going to be in, what the expectations are, and if everybody is clear about what your role is there at least when you get started. Roles will adapt. When you get on a team, they want you to do one thing first, but then as they see your skill set and your level of professionalism and knowledge, they may ask you to take on more roles. But you have to start somewhere, and I think establishing what your role is is the key to one getting on a team, the sports med team, but then also staying on that team, I can definitely see where that would be the case. And Roger, with you having two credentials and being that dual credential provider, your scope of practice is a bit larger than most. Tell me a little bit about how beneficial it's been for you to have the ability to wear both ATC hat when needed, but then also the LMT hat and how that has influenced your role in serving on these sports med teams. Right, So, being dual credentialed allow affords me the opportunity to fit in, to get in where I can fit in, and when someone needs the acute care, I can throw the AT hat on, when someone needs the salt tissue work, I can throw the LMT hat on. And when we go back to resources, it makes things more marketable, more resourceful by bringing someone who like myself, can wear both hats and can morph into one or the other with whatever's needed at the time. And that has been Being an LMT has made me a better AT, and being an AT has made me a better LT. So the services under those umbrellas, I'm able to provide those services at a much higher level of competency in confidence then for se In my opinion, if I was just one of them one or the other. Because I can understand, like we're talking about the lanes, I can understand both lanes, and I can know how I need to shift lanes or stay in this lane to go based on what's going on in the environment around me. So that's how I've utilized both of those those omissions well. And recently, I know that you both were speaking about your trip to World Championships, first of course in France at team prep and then going on to compete in the UK. Tell me a little bit about that experience and how it differs from some of the sporting events that you guys have done here in the US. Obviously, when you have a travel component to a foreign country, especially when you're in a foreign country doesn't speak your native tongue, I'm sure there's a little bit of some transition that happens there. But then beyond that, when you're traveling with athletes so far away from home, how did that impact some of what you were able to do with them from a preparation for competition standpoint. This was my first international event. I know Rogers has worked a couple so he'll be able to speak to his experience with it. But this is why I should say this. This is my first international event with Team USA. I've worked other ones before and it's always a little bit of a different challenge, and this one we were very well resourced. A lot of the sports medicine things that we need were in place. So many times, what you're worrying about is, let's say, the jet lag. When we landed in France, we literally unpacked and then headed over to the venue to go start training. And at that point you're trying to make sure that all of the athletes have at least it's been fed and hydrated and are in a place where they're going to compete or not compete, but rather train in a way that both going to be useful but also not harm themselves. So we drug over everything that we needed from a sports med standpoint. I oh, Roger brought some of his things along with him. I brought a bag of my toys along with me, my treatment tools, so to speak. And then Carley, who was the point person for US for USAG, brought over two kits of which we were using both for treatment but also for recovery. So it's a little bit different each and every single time. But yeah, we travel with everything we need and if there's something that we need, we try to source it there in country. If we can't get it, we have to figure out how to work around it. Yeah, Roger, what are some of your favorite things that you had packed in your treatment toolkit? Well, my go to is my My favorite modality is my PMF guided PMF machine plus that we can go down rabbit hole of that. But that is like one of my go to because it can address so many different issues from recovery to injury. It's a hands on application PMF modality which is Pulst electromagnetic frequency. But that was my one of my that was my number one go to. And then honestly this is gonna sound like, you know whatever, but my hands, my hands and with our group that we took to France, we we we were before we went, we just determined who had what, who was going to be able to bring what equipment and therefore we had it as comprehensive as we could as far as resources being allowed us to travel with. So it didn't like when I went to the Pan Am Games, just before I went to France. Done in Chile, I carried everything and I had to be in contact with USOBC for their team USA Sports Medicine Clinic to make sure that they had things so I wouldn't have to bring. So communication with that is critical as far as whether we're going to bring cups instrument assistant, soft tissue equipment, to new compression therapy, to different things of the dynamic tape, the Electronics Plus to the mark pros, to the variety of equipment that we use for treatment, and we try to bring what's going to translate from recovery as well as treatment. That when you're talking about bringing the equipment, it's collectively between what the group decides on what's going to be best care for the athletes. Well, my go to is definitely my Electrons Plus and it's an exciting piece of equipment and in my hands, and of course there is the soft tissue work and stretching. Yeah, and of course those hands go with you everywhere you go. So fortunately that's your favorite piece of equipment and you always have it with you. So it sounds like then communication has been a key theme throughout all of this. When you're working at this level with a team of sports medicine providers, there has to be a high level of communication. Talk to me a little bit about how you all communicate with the other members of sports med in between events. Clearly, not all of these athletes see you all in clinical practice regularly. You don't all live in the same place. You're pretty scattered around the US. How do you communicate with the other members of the sports med team to continue to care for these athletes in between competition? But then how do you also communicate with those athletes to make sure that they're doing what they need to be doing in between events. That's different from MGB TOGB national governing bodies. With USA Gymnastics, there are point people that are the liaisons between the athletes and sports medicine. So that's not necessarily my role I foresee. It probably could be in the future, but there are point people that work with the athletes and their respective sports medicine staff at the places that they live that take that on. When you are the point person because you're working with a maybe a smaller association and I'm not even talking for necessarily USA. Maybe you're working with a soccer team and you are the sports med for the soccer team, but you also have to help manage the treatment for those athletes. Then it becomes important that you have the you're allowed to contact the sports med on behalf of the athlete. Usually it's just kind of understood, but you do need to have those those responsibilities and those recognitions in place in order to do that. But it's it's a little bit different depending upon the circumstance that you're working in. Roger, would you say that's the same experience that you've had working with the national teams. Absolutely, and with me being involved with the I'm the medical provider for hired. I'm hired to provide to be their medical provider. I don't. I just want to be clear, I'm not. I don't work for USA Raquetball. They hire me as an independent medical provider for them. So following up and communicating with the athletes are mandatory. But we do communicate along the year to make sure that everyone's doing okay and what's going on in there their training aspects or life in general, and text email, phone calls, and then sometimes athletes are traveling internationally, so there's a couple of different apps that we use to communicate with them, and then there's there's different programs that we can like the electronic health records and such that we can communicate through the service providers as well set up to communicate with them. How would you like to get even more great content from Factor in your inbox each week? Things like early access to exclusive retrainings, coupons and promotional offers from our online store, and timely updates on research and news you can use to grow your practice and improve your patient care. If I've picked your interest, you should be sure to click on the Factor five Things Friday link in our show notes. Simply give us your contact details and start getting our weekly Factor five Things Friday email in your inbox. It's a simple bullet point style format with no fluff, just tons of great content and resources you can use for continual professional growth. So be sure to visit the show notes, click that link and keep an eye on your inbox each Friday. Now back to the show Wonderful. Now let's shift a little bit to the treatment room, specifically in those treatment encounters, having now both of you having a lot of experience in treating amateur athletes and even recreational athletes in practice, but then also now having treated athletes that are at the peak of their career. They're at an elite level of performance with a lot of pressure on their shoulders to compete well, both primarily self imposed, but then also the entire country might be looking to them. What have you found is different in those treatment encounters in terms of how they respond to your recommendations, how they listen, how they have a knowledge of their body, or even how they communicate with you about what's going on. What's different about treating athletes at that elite level versus the amateur and the recreational athletes that you see in practice, taking all components of time aside, just in terms of how that interaction goes and how they communicate, and then how receptive they are to the care that you're providing. At the elite level, no one knows the athlete better than themselves, so they're very in tune with their body and likely at that level have experienced a lot of sports medicine, so they're familiar with me any treatments. They're familiar with the ones that they respond really well to, and they're familiar with the ones they don't respond well to or don't like. And I think that's incredibly important as part of being an advocate for an athlete is recognizing the things that they say need. If an athlete says, hey, I really like this, but I don't like again needling. Some athletes love it. Some athletes absolutely hate it. And if I want to do needling and they say Nope, I don't want to do that it makes me sore, or can we wait until afterwards, then yes, absolutely, So you always have to take into account what they want. It's a conversation. Sometimes they don't understand or have a full grasp on what they need, so you have to educate in a way that helps them to make the decision about what kind of care they want to receive. So it's not to say that my opinion supersedes their own, but when you're treating an elite athlete and you, as the healthcare provider, do something that creates an adverse response and they don't perform well or can't perform at all, your time on that team is going to be very very short. So to me, it's very much a conversation, and they make it easier again by being so in tune with themselves as to provide some information about how they think they're going to respond to something and then you have to use your own clinical insight about what comes next. Many athletes are capable of getting treatment multiple times a day, and they want to come in for the exact same thing that they were provided earlier in that day, and sometimes, as the clinician, you have to say, look, we already did that earlier. I don't think it's a good idea that we provide that same treatment. Let's do something else now. Maybe it's putting on a little bit of electrical stimulation to get some blood flow going. Perhaps it's wearing one of the recovery compression devices. Perhaps it's working with in instances Roger to get a little bit of soft tissue work done. We're always looking for the thing that suits the athlete best at that point, and it's got to be a conversation with that athlete at that time. At the elite level, it's it's very different with the amateurs because perhaps they haven't had that level of sports medicine exposure. So that's when the clinician really needs to educate about what they think is going to be best at that time. Roger, would you say that's been your safe experience, Yes, the elite level is. I mean both sides is communication. If you listen to the athlete, whether it's elite or amateur, they'll tell you what they're looking for, even if they don't know what they're looking for. I know that's kind of conmolluded there, but amateurs don't always know, like they're they're unsure. So there you you kind of go heavier on the educational aspect so that they can be informed and they can understand where your your thought process is for them. So again it circles back to them trusting you. But on the elite they've got to they've got to trust you. But the listening to what they're telling you, and then you were advising them and basically being a facilitator so that they can one be physically at peace and mentally at piece that Okay, we're doing everything we're supposed to be. This is I don't have. This is one one box that gets checked off that I am able to exhale and move on. And yeah, communication and both verbal and auditory listening listening to the athletes is critical. If but that is definitely what I've seen. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And if you were to be given an option of if there was one thing that you wish your amateur athletes, your weekend warriors, your active patients that come into your practice, if there was one thing that you wish that they could take kind of a page out of the way that elite athletes do things. If there was one thing that you wish they did a little bit differently or approached differently more like those elite athletes, what would it be? And obviously performance aside, not everyone can be an Olympian, for sure, But how do you wish your everyday patients approached your treatment differently and more like your elite athletes do. That's a twofold thing for me. I don't think many people understand the level of commitment and work that goes into competing at that level. We can all say we do, but unless you've seen it firsthand. You've seen the sweat, you've seen the broken bones, you've seen the torn things, it's really hard to wrap your mind around the level of commitment it takes to climb back up out of that injury hole and keep going. That being said, that kind of leads into my second thing was these elite athletes, for the most part, and I don't want to say it's one hundred percent but I would say it's a very high percentage. Also, take their health and their sports medicine very seriously. So if they have an appointment, they're going to be at that appointment. If they're told to do something during or after that appointment, the majority of the time, they're going to do that thing. Again, it's not all the way across the board, but I would also say there are stratification of elite athletes. The ones that have made it to that level but won't follow directions, don't make it to the top of the top. So the things that I wish my amateur athletes would do is recognize the amount of time it takes to get to that level. You're not just going to sit around and watch it happen. And then when you have responsibility and caring for yourself, that you take that responsibility upon yourself and get that work done. Absolutely, it's commitment, commitment to what the task is at hand. They plan, commitment of recovery treatments. Yeah, God, once again, you hit that hit. You hit the nail on the head with that. The elite athletes, you tell them, they take great pride in nutrition. They listen, they value all of it. Nutrition, They sleep, they get their rest, they do everything they can to maximize their opportunity for the next day, our opportunity in that moment. That's that's what I would love the amateur athletes to be able that. It's they elite athletes hate getting into a cold tub or a cryo chamber, but they'll do it. They'll do it because they recognize and value the benefits of these things that we're telling them and asking them to do and recommending that they do. AMDRA athletes they're like, I'm not doing that today, or I've got to do X, Y and Z before I do any recovery or treatment. I've got got this that's going up. I've got to go to dinner with doing this or doing that. And I'm not saying starving themselves by no means, but the placement, commitment and prioritizing to what they put into becoming an elite athlete. Yeah, it sounds like they're very much a proactive partner in their health. They take the initiative to do the things that are necessary to get to a high level and to perform at a high level. While we're talking about our wishes here and what we wish was different, or improved. What do you wish that coaches better understood about what you do and then how you can contribute to an athlete's help and performance. Go Roger, I know you got some opinions on this. Coaches trust the sports medicine staff that they have the athlete's best interest. Like Toddy alluded to you earlier, if you make mistakes too many mistakes, you're not going to be a part of that staff for very long. And you've got to earn your earn your place at the table. But coaches have got to allow the sports medicine staff to do their jobs and not get in the way. I had a baseball manager during my time. I was talking to him about how we wanted to handle some cases and he looks at me and he goes, I'm dealing with x's and O. You deal with bones and muscles. And that's kind of the approach that I would like for coaches to be able to do and trust and know that what we're trying to do is once again, so they can optly perform and do the things that the coaches need them to do on a daily basis, on an hourly basis. But we can't just and we have to they have to respect both the physical and mental aspects of that and more is not always better, but better is better. And that's that's kind of a short version of some of my opinions on coaches and what I always they would listen with us, And I agree with Roger, and I look at it the same way I looked at it when I was a performance coach, that I'm trying to turn an athlete back to that coach that is going to be better. Maybe their performance is improved, but is also going to be more resilient, so they're going to be able to stand up to the task and the wear and tear of their sport. So, as Rogers said, that trust needs to be there between the sports med staff and the coach. That one, we have the health and safety at the forefront of our mind of that athlete, but also we want them to perform at their highest level, so we make decisions based upon their health and safety, but then also on their performance. And again the athlete is a part of that decision making process too, So all of us kind of have to put our heads together to determine what's going to be the best for that athlete at that time. So, as Roger was saying, I think trust needs to be there. There is a lane component, like the coach needs to stay in their lane. They're the coach and most of the time are not really adept at sports medicine. Even though they've been around injuries their entire career, that doesn't make them qualified to determine whether an athletes should go or not. So again, it's a it's a three way conversation the athlete, maybe athlete representative, parents, whoever, the coach, and the sports med staff is to what's going to be the best moving forward and provide the best outcomes well. And I think that's a huge testament what both of you are saying to the level of care that you both have taken to continually improve yourselves and to continue to build your clinical skill set and essentially to earn the right to be able to be members of these sports med teams at this level, but at the same time to have had the chops to really share your credibility at a way that is a testament to the work that you have done. Neither one of you have taken your careers kind of laying back and just waiting for opportunities to arise. You both have it sounds like invested a great deal of time both in the learned and the earn it sides of what it takes to become a practitioner that can treat athletes that are at these high levels. I appreciate so much this discussion today because it's been incredibly informative, and I hope for those of you that are listening that are either early on in practice or are still students, that you have really taken a lot of the advice and wisdom that has come from this conversation to heart. These are certainly great examples here of two different healthcare providers in various professions that have been very intentional about how they've approached their education. They've been very intentional about how they have taken opportunities and taken initiative to do the time to do the work to serve athletes in this way so that they can then continue to progress themselves professionally. One of the things that I always like to ask at the end of any interview is to find out a little bit more about what you all are currently doing to progress yourselves, both from a professional standpoint, a clinical standpoint, but then also from a business standpoint, because you're both entrepreneurs, and then finally from a personal standpoint. So I'll ask this to each of you. Tell me a little bit about anything that you're doing currently for your own personal growth. Now this can be a book that you're reading, a podcast that you're listening to, a specific training that you might be going through, or what are you doing to invest in your own personal growth as an individual. That then carries over, of course, into what you do when it comes to treating the various patients that you serve well. As a faculty member at a chiropractic school, I'm kind of thrust into the position of having to stay on top of the latest information. So from a professional development standpoint, I'm trying to take in as much research or evidence based information as I can, whether that be through hard copy research or listening to a professional podcast that's related to something that I'm working on. I try to take it in. I like taking it in different formats. I find that audiobooks and podcasts are a very easy way to take an information. I like to listen to podcasts oddly enough, while I'm working out, whether that's for a personal development or it's professional development. I've got several that I like to kind of work through. BJSM podcast is a great one. The Strength and Conditioning Journal is another great one. So there's short format things that I can kind of work through various topics. Another one to drive with Peter Attia. I like to work through his stuff. But personally, when I kind of get to shut my brain down, so to speak, I enjoy history. So I'm working through a biography about Winston Churchill right now, finished up one about Thomas Edison earlier, another one about Benjamin Franklin. So I like learning from I achievers as part of my it's I know it sounds strange, as part of my relaxation time. So I can't say that I truly shut my brain off unless I'm watching a movie. But yeah, those are the things, and I'm always seeking out good and continuing education. Obviously that's the world that I live in as well. So I'm looking forward next year to take in a couple more dry needling courses. There's a couple of assessment courses I want to take, So yeah, I'm always on the lookout and Roger for you. For me, I'm not a huge reader. More audio and more podcasts as far as professional personal growth, I think for me goes hand in hand. One of my latest books that I did read was Ego is the Enemy, and it's it has been just I applied it in so many things in the personal life as well as professional growth. For the entrepreneurial attitudes and thought process one has to maintain or obtain and then maintain and just being able to push forward each day with that. So Ego is the Enemy is the book, and I would highly recommend that for everyone because it applies to anyone in every endeavor that a person may go through, as far as my business, professional growth, any type of self help like bile haacking leadership podcast. There's so many that you listen to them, and I get something from everything, so I won't say that one is like better than the other. For me, a lot of people will just won't listen to them. I'm like, pick one and listen to it. If it resonates with you, listen to it. There's no wrong answer with any of them. Just find the area that you're wanting to listen to and learn about and just open it up and jump in. But the one that's that I'm currently onto is called the Ultimate human Airy Breca a human physiologist, and some fascinating information and such, and a lot of his science behind what he's talking about resonates with my philosophical approaches that were as to what my business stands for and anything to do with the nervous system. I'm all about how can I create fastest, safest, most efficient approach to someone when they're in front of me, so that I can treat the person in the best way possible. As I've grown professionally, I feel like there's I tend to gravitate more to a lot of the manual their hands on versus the different passive white mobilities get into more creating system the rehabilitation approach. How can we incorporate a person not just a local aspect, but how do we create a system for the full person collectively. So I don't want to stay holistic because that people can take a different interpretation with that. But I treat the whole body, mind and mind and physical and anything that lends me some opportunities to learn. That is what I go towards. I think that's important to be the constant student, to be curious and constantly trying to learn from those around you and from the experiences that you have afforded you and the opportunities that present themselves. Finally, one last little ques question for each of you. If you were to give some advice to a student or a new practitioner that has heard this podcast, they think you guys are doing some incredible things and they want these opportunities for themselves one day. What is that best piece of advice that you would give to that student or that new doc that they can do right now to prepare themselves for a future career where they get to treat athletes at this level. Well, it starts with understanding that just because you have a license now or a certificate doesn't mean that people are going to start seeking you out. You have to make yourself available and I really hold on to what Roger was saying earlier about volunteerism. You're going to spend a lot of your own time and sometimes your own resources trying to work your way into a specific team or a community. So you have to be able to make yourself available for those opportunities because that's really where the magic happens. That's where you make the connections and maybe the person you're connecting to isn't the right person, but they may know the right person, So you never know how far reaching your networking and your volunteerism will go. As Rogers said, and I agree with everything you said. That's why I'm kind of reiterating these points. Once you make it into an organization or onto a team, check your ego. Okay, everybody has a place there or otherwise they wouldn't be there. So you have to know what your role is and be willing to be a team member. Everybody gets their say. And then I think lastly, the learning never ends once you've made it. That doesn't mean that you get to rest now. Now you have the responsibility to really up your game and continue to learn and to improve yourself. Yes, networking, launch ruism, making yourself available and for me and I may resonate with only a small group, that I may resonate with everybody on this world. Let's stay authentic. Stay authentic with yourself and practice your your your art, your trade, your your skills with conviction, and and be okay with not having the answers to all the questions, but being able to put yourself out there to say that it's okay to say I don't know, but let's find this answer. Let's find out what we can do to help you get better. Agree, well said answers, what that I well said? I totally agree with that. You're right, and just just be authentic with it and be true, don't be fake. And that's that's what I would recommend people. Don't. Don't try so hard to be committed and to do with conviction, And wouldn't you feel like you're going to regret it. Don't do it, You're going to regret it. But know that this is this is a challenge, it's selfless, and you have to be okay with that's because it is an extremely rewarding opportunity. Yeah, you're there to serve. That's a very good point. Wonderful, Well, thank you both so much. This has been an incredible conversation. I hope our listeners have gained a lot of insight and definitely some pieces of advice and wisdom that you all have imparted today that they can take with them and apply to their own clinical practice or to their journey towards becoming a provider. So again, thank you both so much for the discussion today. I very much appreciate you taking the time and really kind of giving us some insight in that behind the scenes look into what it does take to be a member of a sports medicine team at such a high level. Thank you both, Thanks for the opportunity. Thank you. That's it for today's episode. If you enjoy listening to the Factor podcast, be sure to like, download, and rate our show and then share it with a friend. Sharing is caring, and every share allows us to continue on our mission to deliver the best cutting edge education to healthcare providers around the globe. Be sure to tune in for episode seventy three, where we return to the on the go educational format that you love with a new training featuring guest instructor doctor Mark Callanan on therapeutic laser and its applications for treating pain. Episode seventy three drops in two weeks. We'll see you next time. Hey guys, if you like what you heard today, I encourage you to visit our website at Factor hyphenstore dot com that's spelled fa k tr hyphenstore dot com to find out more information about all that we have to offer. We have a variety of online offerings as well as our hands on Factor rehab system course scheduled in cities around the globe. Be sure to also check out our event calendar and bookmark any of these upcoming live webinar dates coming up in the near future so you can join us live. And of course, the biggest compliment we can receive is for you to help us spread the word to your friends, colleagues, and classmates. You'll find all the important links, as well as info about our sponsors in the show notes, so be sure to check those out.